More considerations

I've been buzzing about, skimming through these actor discussions. I have seen far fewer films than you two gentlemen; nevertheless, I shall offer my opinions.

As far as the number of quality films a person acts in, I suppose we have to think about the length of a person's career, which I'm sure you've considered. Someone like Elizabeth Taylor, who was quite captivating in her early career hasn't continued. What do we do with someone who has a career like hers? And are you all thinking specifically about leading roles, or can someone be a supporting actor/character actor? What if the person has the potential to be both and has played integral roles and less-visible parts? I guess I'm asking if a person's versatility should be a factor in determining said actor's greatness.

For me, it seems to be about being able to dissolve one's public persona (say, who we the public think DeNiro or Eastwood or Streep *is*) and becoming this other person. That sense of versatility then becomes the trump card when considering greatness, and I think it's particularly remarkable when an actor's appearance (ie his or her physical beauty or age or unattractiveness or something like this) fades. Someone like Joan Crawford I enjoy a great deal, but her later pictures, she's just Joan Crawford being another version of herself (the public persona we attach to her), the melodramatic bitch-goddess. That's why I can get behind someone like Gene Hackman being considered as a masterful living actor.

That being said, I can think of a couple of living actors who may not be the tippy-top of the poll but certainly deserve a second look:

1. Sissy Spacek

2. Tommy Lee Jones

3. Shirley McClaine

Maybe I'd throw in a Sally Field or a Ralph Finnes, because of their abilities to sort of dissolve into their roles.

Also, Judi Dench has a long TV career too. She's quite good in As Time Goes By. And for the record, I'd like to say Paul Newman and Peter O'Toole are two of my favorites. Kudos to considering Cary Grant. I think he was an equally adept comedic and dramatic actor.


Lastly, and this is more tangential, I have less a problem with using the term "actress" to mean "female actor," simply because it's more descriptive and specific than "actor."

Streep-tease

Exceptional Meryl Streep Performances:

The Deer Hunter
Kramer vs. Kramer
Sophie's Choice
Adaptation

Strong Meryl Streep Performances:

Manhattan
The French Lieutenant's Woman
Out of Africa
The Bridges of Madison County
The Hours
Angels in America
The Devil Wears Prada

Totally Crazy Meryl Streep Performances:

Death Becomes Her
A Prairie Home Companion

OSCAR Nominations:

The Devil Wears Prada
Adaptation
Music of the Heart
One True Thing
The Bridges of Madison County
Postcards from the Edge
Evil Angels
Ironweed
Out of Africa
Silkwood
Sophie's Choice (won)
The French Lieutenant's Woman
Kramer vs. Kramer (won)
The Deer Hunter.

That's right: she's been nominated 12 times. 12. With a 13th for Doubt a near-certainty. She also has two Emmys. 6 Golden Globes. An AFI Lifetime Achievement Award. 2 National Board of Review Awards. 4 NSFCA Awards. And 2 SAG Awards.

I think her pedigree stands up, and I think she's a pretty solid pick for best female actor of all time.

Some mini-arguments

I'm still working out my top ten lists. I have done a little bit of work, though.

1. Robert DeNiro
I can tell you right now that this cat should be on top. Perhaps not the most talented among the bunch (you could say that Brando had more raw sexuality and chops), but definitely the best all around candidate with range and an amazing list of films (by far, the best out of the top 300, imho).
Check these out: Raging Bull, Godfather II, Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, Once Upon a Time in America, Mean Streets, Deer Hunter, and King of Comedy and Casino somewhere in the top 500...
If we needed a tiebreaker between him and Brando (more on him in a sec), check out GF II where I think ONLY he could have pulled off a performance as the young Brando-Corleone.

2. Brando
Influence? Hear it. Strength/quality of individual performances? Okay. The breadth just isn't there though. Sandy Koufax of acting. He's hurt by the fact that he only has two leading roles in Top 100 flicks. He's at best a bit player in Apocalypse, something akin to Welles in Third Man (though not as good as Welles's turn as Harry Lime). Incidentally, the lack of great FILMS to support the great PERFORMANCES is one reason why I've rethought Nicholson and Hoffman. Just not there.

3. Cary Grant
WTF? Why isn't he on our top list...maybe top 5? Talk about no respect! Look at this guy's list from the top 300:
North by Northwest, Notorious, Bringing up Baby, His Girl Friday, Philadelphia Story, Only Angels Have Wings, The Awful Truth, Gunga Din...
We have range and quality in spades.

4. Intriguing also rans (those who won't quite make it but who are analogous to Oldman as best supporting nods...)
a. Joseph Cotton
b. Sterling Hayden
c. Gene Hackman
d. William Holden

Criteria

Cross reference each actor with a list of the Top 100 films (your list, The National Film Critics list, AFI, just something); how many Top 100 films is each actor in?

Evaluate range; is DeNiro the same character in each of his top movies? No. Does he have good performances across a range of genres? I would say yes.

Subtract points NOT for bad films but BAD performances in BAD films; thus Oldman can't be blamed if JFK gets crushed under the weight of Kevin Costner. His performance as Oswald is terrific.

Tiebreaker? Boxoffice. Possibly Oscars.

Holla back.

Best Actors, Living, Dead, Men, Women, and Otherwise

My thoughts on your list, Jonathan, then my lists:

I like a lot of the love you're giving out here, even though I don't agree about Dame Judi Dench (care to highlight some notable work I might not be thinking of?) or Angela Bassett (same question?); however, I am a total loss as to why in the freaking world you included Charlize Theron. Yes, she's good in MONSTER, fine in a few other movies...but where is she transcendent? REINDEER GAMES? TWO DAYS IN THE VALLEY? THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE? AEON FLUX? She's spent the majority of her years as gratuitous T&A, and although her recent push towards "serious" work has been successful so far, she's hardly spent enough time doing it to really rank among the elites. My opinion? You're giving an ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT bump here...

Okay, gripes are done for now. So, first the (co-ed) list of living, working actors:

Daniel Day Lewis
Meryl Streep
Benicio Del Toro
Cate Blanchett
Tom Hanks
Robert De Niro
Kate Winslet
Philip Seymour Hoffman
Dustin Hoffman
Willem Dafoe

Honorable Mentions:

Gary Oldman
Sean Penn
Ian McKellen
Johnny Depp
Helen Mirren
Anthony Hopkins
Clint Eastwood
Jack Nicholson
Emma Thompson
Christian Bale


Now, for Best Actors Ever, in order:

Marlon Brando
Robert De Niro
Meryl Streep
James Stewart
Paul Newman
Katherine Hepburn
Daniel Day-Lewis
Bette Davis
Henry Fonda
Charles Chaplin

**a caveat: I'm thinking of almost exclusively American/Hollywood actors here, with a few Brits-this isn't to suggest there aren't excellent Asian and European stars-it's just that I'm not sure it's fair to evaluate them based on the limited work I've seen. But one gratuitous shout-out feels about right:

Word to Toshiro Mifune!


Alright, let me have it, already.

Synecdoche, New York

Two and a half Stars

Riotously funny for about 45 minutes while the film establishes Philip Seymour Hoffman's character. Much less so for the next hour and a half. Kaufman is still obsessed with what living in this world means given there is no God or immortality. In fact, the only surprising thing about this film is that there is no attempt at spirituality. Immortality? There's only art. God? There's only the director/writer, and this time Kaufman's both.

Top Ten Actors

AFI says this:

1. Marlon Brando
2. Laurence Olivier
3. Robert DeNiro
4. James Stewart
5. Alec Guinness
6. Humphrey Bogart
7. Gregory Peck
8. Jack Nicholson
9. Henry Fonda
10. Spencer Tracy

What say you? Give me a list and we can talk about it.